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Old 10-01-2011, 09:53 AM   #1
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Default brushless motor choices

Wondering if the new crop of 4 pole, sensored brushless motors, are really better than the sensorless variety, and the pros and cons of each. I only have experience with the sensorless variety (velenion) they seem to do the job for me, with plenty of power and run time, so why would I need to spend so much money on these other systems? I do race, though not often in the summer, and do very well, so I am wondering, are the sensored motors better? and why?
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:01 PM   #2
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Good question mate, cant wait to hear some of the responses

Cheers
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Old 10-01-2011, 03:37 PM   #3
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For most people, it won't make as much difference upgrading from a velineon to a Pro4 as it would to take that $130 and spend it on RACING AT THE TRACK and getting in more practice.
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Old 10-02-2011, 09:59 AM   #4
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I am not most people, I have a track in my yard that is better than most race tracks. I want racers opinions. I do more than hold my own at the track, I practice more than most people, my track is lit for night running, I run at least 7 packs a week, what I am looking for is the difference between the sensored and sensorless as in, how it works on the track, more throttle control? smoother? I notice the velenion is a bit of a lightswitch, once past half throttle it seems to be wide open. I have just adapted to this, I have driven some other systems in different trucks, so its hard to judge from that, my truck is very different from theirs. Hope that clears up what I am looking for. I really dont care what manufacturer is your favorite, that is not what this is about, its more of a what are the differences between them.

THanks for your opinions and replies!
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Old 10-02-2011, 10:35 AM   #5
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I do race my 4pole in my 2wd slash. On the tracks that I race on it has too much power in the 2wd. I run a castle esc and have it tuned to be fairly linear to half throttle then fairly exponential from there on up. for some reason my castle setup has a little throttle glitch, as does my friends ( only 2 100% castle systems I've played with ). If the throttle is gently applied it goes smooth then blips the throttle and goes smooth again. I have not been able to tune this out.

As for sensored. I have yet to race my sensored system. I have it in an e revo. It is smoother then the 4 pole in every way. The castle I run just has brutal power. The sensored unit can be brutal but at the same time it's a smooth power delivery.

IMHO, it's all down to driving style. When I first got the sensored setup I had to learn how to drive it since I was used to sensorless. Now if I go back to the slash its learning to drive all over again.


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Old 10-02-2011, 10:43 AM   #6
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thanks Deerhurst, that is the kind of feedback I am looking for!
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:12 AM   #7
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Assuming the same kv and same ESC and ESC settings:
A Sensored 2 - pole will be smoother than an unsensored 4 - pole but the 4 - pole will have more punch.
A sensored 4 - pole will be smoother than a sensored 2 - pole AND will have more low-end punch.
with sensored running, the feedback that your ESC gets from your motor will allow for greater tuning options.

The 4-poles I've seen at the track are all sensored, so I really cannot say I have seen this in person, but the science is there. I'm pretty sure the 4-pole that our best driver is running is a 4000kv Tekin Pro4. I'm running the SC4x 5.5T 550, which has the same kv rating, and he DEFINATELY has more low end punch, but through some of the higher speed corners, we both seem pretty much just as smooth on and off the throttle, and identical speeds down the straights (200 foot straight, so I definately have time to see both at top speed)

(Not saying Tekin is my fave...but just knowing that these two motors are from the same MFR should tell you that the kv ratings are rated the same way.)
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r955 View Post
Wondering if the new crop of 4 pole, sensored brushless motors, are really better than the sensorless variety, and the pros and cons of each. I only have experience with the sensorless variety (velenion) they seem to do the job for me, with plenty of power and run time, so why would I need to spend so much money on these other systems? I do race, though not often in the summer, and do very well, so I am wondering, are the sensored motors better? and why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by r955 View Post
I am not most people, I have a track in my yard that is better than most race tracks. I want racers opinions. I do more than hold my own at the track, I practice more than most people, my track is lit for night running, I run at least 7 packs a week, what I am looking for is the difference between the sensored and sensorless as in, how it works on the track, more throttle control? smoother? I notice the velenion is a bit of a lightswitch, once past half throttle it seems to be wide open. I have just adapted to this, I have driven some other systems in different trucks, so its hard to judge from that, my truck is very different from theirs. Hope that clears up what I am looking for. I really dont care what manufacturer is your favorite, that is not what this is about, its more of a what are the differences between them.

THanks for your opinions and replies!
The thing you never mentioned was what kind of truck you have, and what kind of class you race in when you do go to the track, and since that makes a difference you really haven't given enough information.
The new 4-pole motors are really being designed for the heavier 4wd trucks, with higher drivetrain loads and torque requirements, and they're not really intended or practical for running in a 2wd truck.
Most of your "lightswitch" experiences are more due to the lower quality of the more budget model ESC that you've used than motor you're using, and any motor is only going to be as smooth as the software installed in the ESC. Otherwise sensored BL systems are always going to smoother than their non-sensored counterparts.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:57 AM   #9
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both 2 and 4wd slash, the two wheel drive is very far from a traxxas at this point, the 4wd is relatively stock.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:04 AM   #10
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Even from the most basic practical viewpoints, not only are any 2wd and 4wd trucks very different but they also have entirely different realistic power requirements. I have a 4.5 in my 4wd, may get a 4-pole for it next summer, and wouldn't even think about putting either in my 2wd.
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Old 10-03-2011, 12:02 PM   #11
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I put my SC4x 5.5 into my SC10 2wd just to see what would happen... geared it to the same FDR as I was running with the 13.5 540...with Caliber 2.0s on a well groomed outdoor clay track nearing blue groove...

Wheelie
Wheelie
Wheelie
SNAP!

Two broken CVDs....
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:10 PM   #12
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What's up r955 in my opinion 2pole or 4pole sensored is king. I have noticed that sensored are super smooth really responsive to throttle input and seems to make any kit feel more controllable and lighter. As far as sensorless goes its hard to go back to it due to having to get past the cogging or from a dead stop giving a little bit of throttle to make it creep then the sudden random burst out of nowhere like a tantrum in the motor just happened.

Some may argue that they don't have that problem and they might not but i have never had any of those symptoms in my sensored stuff. I guess uts safe to say ive been spoiled by sensored systems ill never go back to sensorless.

and on a side note it sux that i wont get to race your green carbon fiber what used to be a slash next weekend at cecils. Good luck on your enduro race greg what the temps big dawg haha! Ill be coming for a j30 rear end soon.

Should've kept your coupe bro!
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:36 AM   #13
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it was just a car!!! maybe I will find another, just not my scene anymore! I am 41 too old for that stuff anymore, plus kids, and the shop, no time to build anything, I do still have an 83 supra, and a 75 celica gt, so all is not lost. The motor question is more for the 2wd, the velenion is pretty violent and I may go to a sensored just to calm it down in low traction situations.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r955 View Post
Wondering if the new crop of 4 pole, sensored brushless motors, are really better than the sensorless variety, and the pros and cons of each. I only have experience with the sensorless variety (velenion) they seem to do the job for me, with plenty of power and run time, so why would I need to spend so much money on these other systems? I do race, though not often in the summer, and do very well, so I am wondering, are the sensored motors better? and why?

Well you have a point there. The past couple of seasons, many felt the same way and ran the same system in the SCT 4wd class. I can tell you we have alll gotten a little faster over the last couple of seasons, and the entry level systems might suffice, but they are not in the A-main so much these days, not to mention if you have one of the heavier trucks, heat will be an issue all the time and will ultimately limit your performance.

Now move into a new programable sensored system with a 4 pole motor, and smoothness increases big time, rpm and torque double, and heat in the motor and the esc are only a remote concern when it launches the truck over jumps like triples and quads! Controlling the application of the power is how the lap times get better, and set-up becomes more important as well. The problem with my rig now is getting all the bearings to live more than a week or two.

Here is another point, with the programability, you only need one motor and system for most of the tracks and courses you will run as you can tailor the power band to your exact driving needs....It really makes it comfortable to drive, and drive fast.

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Old 10-04-2011, 03:55 PM   #15
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I was just kidding r955 your beamer is hot too. Going sensored will smooth out the power band alot more so you can just worry about your setup more
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Old 10-04-2011, 04:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
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The problem with my rig now is getting all the bearings to live more than a week or two.

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When was the last time you gave your truck a proper cleaning?
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:17 AM   #17
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It seems with the two wheel drive I am always right on the edge of traction, I usually like this setup, but it is getting taxing mentally to drive right on the edge. I am just having a hard time justifying 250 bucks for some traction, the local track I run on is a tight track with tons of corners and a lot of jumps, so I like having alot of punch, but it doesnt do much good if you cant get it to the ground. My 4wd seems fine for this type of track, 7.4 2s and a velenion seems to be the right combination of violence and speed. I just have to fool with the diffs a little more, the rear seems to be slipping, the front tires blow up like a top fuel dragster, the rears seem to always be planted, this only changed once I put the center diff in, but it is much smoother and easier to drive this way. Jeremiah, I am running the 4 wheel sunday, so we need to send a call out to the 4wd guys!
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:37 AM   #18
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I forgot to ask what wieght oil you running in the center and rear diff?

Oh hell yes I'm looking forward to a rematch that slash is going down (I hope)

I thought you was going to an endurance race this weekend?
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:54 AM   #19
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it was cancelled from lack of interest, He had some crazy qualifiers and a 1 vehicle rule, 3 drivers, so it would be gas against electrice, 1/8 1/10th together and only 6 teams in the main 500 lap race. I think it was the rules that killed it. I am not driving 7 hours for a club race, although I really want to hang out with my cousin. Whatever came in the center diff, is what is in it, I have heard people say its 100,000, its pretty thick whatever it is, I havent opened it up, I dont remember what I put in the rear diff..7000 and 50,000 are all I have, I believe it was 50,000 in the rear, and the front has never been opened, I think I need some 100,000 for the center, dont know what to put in the front and keep the 50,000 in the rear, maybe 50,000 in the front? I think that is what I will do, working on it tonight.
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Old 10-05-2011, 08:55 AM   #20
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I am looking forward to just having a full track of 4x4, no fun to race against 2 people, thats why I run the 2wd so much, I know people have 4x4 trucks, I dont know why they dont run them!
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